Stellar population astrophysics (SPA) with the TNG. GIANO-B spectroscopy of red supergiants in Alicante 7 and Alicante 10

A. Bragaglia; A. Mucciarelli; E. Dalessandro; E. Oliva; G. Bono; G. Cescutti; L. Origlia; M. Rainer; N. Sanna

REVIEW 3 major objections 6 minor 31 references

Stellar population astrophysics (SPA) with the TNG. GIANO-B spectroscopy of red supergiants in Alicante 7 and Alicante 10

T0 review · 3 major / 6 minor · reviewed 2026-08-14 · deepseek-v4-flash

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Pith's one-line read The paper establishes that ten red supergiants in the Alicante 7 and Alicante 10 associations are members of the Scutum complex with slightly subsolar iron abundances, solar-scaled [X/Fe] for most elements, and CN-cycled surface material.

desk verdict New abundances for two Scutum complex RSG associations: a careful, incremental study whose main metallicity result is robust, though the CNO/Teff degeneracy in the parameter fitting deserves a closer look. read the letter →

arxiv 1908.07779 v1 pith:7LUZLMPL submitted 2019-08-21 astro-ph.SR astro-ph.GA

L. Origlia , E. Dalessandro , N. Sanna , A. Mucciarelli , E. Oliva , G. Cescutti , M. Rainer , A. Bragaglia

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G. Bono

This is my paper · ORCID

classification astro-ph.SRastro-ph.GA

keywords redsupergiantsScutumcomplexnear-infraredspectroscopyGIANO-BchemicalabundancesCNcycle12C/13Cisotopicratiodiffuseinterstellarbands

verification ladder T0 review T1 audit T2 compute T3 formal

The pith

A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.

The reading

The paper establishes that ten of the eleven observed red supergiants, seven in Alicante 7 and three in Alicante 10, belong to the Scutum complex, and that they share a slightly subsolar iron content with roughly solar-scaled abundances for most elements. The average iron abundances are [Fe/H] = -0.18 dex (Alicante 7) and -0.215 dex (Alicante 10), with a 1 sigma scatter of about 0.05-0.06 dex. Carbon is depleted by a few tenths of a dex, nitrogen is enhanced, and the 12C/13C isotopic ratio is 9-13, a pattern the authors attribute to CN-cycled material at the stellar surfaces. A reader should care because these are the first detailed infrared abundance patterns for these associations, placing constraints on recent star formation and chemical enrichment in the inner Milky Way disk.

What carries the argument

The load-bearing instrument is the GIANO-B echelle spectrograph at the Telescopio Nazionale Galileo, which delivers full YJHK (950-2450 nm) coverage at R about 50,000 in a single exposure. The abundance analysis combines spectral synthesis with equivalent-width measurements using MARCS model atmospheres in LTE, with molecular lines of CO, OH, and CN providing the CNO abundances and the 12C/13C ratio, and atomic lines providing iron-peak, alpha, light, and neutron-capture elements. The same molecular features double as the parameter-setting diagnostics: OH and CN are temperature-sensitive, CO bandheads fix microturbulence, and each species is then used to derive the CNO abundances. An independent reddening estimate comes from the diffuse interstellar band at 1317.8 nm, whose strength calibrates to AV consistently with the near-infrared color excesses.

What would settle it

Re-fit at least one member spectrum, such as AL07-F1S02, with solar CNO abundances while re-optimizing Teff, log g, and microturbulence; if a statistically acceptable fit emerges, the reported CN-cycling signature is not uniquely required. Alternatively, an independent temperature estimate from a method insensitive to CNO, such as CO first-overtone band ratios or a resolved optical spectrum, would test whether the molecular-line temperatures are biased.

Watch

Extended reading notes

Core claim

The central discovery is a homogeneous chemical signature for the red supergiant population of Alicante 7 and Alicante 10: slightly subsolar iron, [Fe/H] = -0.18 and -0.215 dex on average, with [X/Fe] ratios within +/-0.1 dex of solar for alpha, iron-peak, light, and neutron-capture elements. The one systematic departure is the CNO group: [C/Fe] is depleted, [N/Fe] enhanced, and 12C/13C lies between 9 and 13, which the paper interprets as evidence that the stars' atmospheres contain CN-cycled material, possibly from extra mixing beyond the first dredge-up. Membership of these ten stars in the Scutum complex is argued from three independent indicators: LSR radial velocities of 79-123 km/s, Gaia DR2 proper motions, and extinction values of AV about 10-16 mag derived from the diffuse interstellar band at 1317.8 nm. The eleventh star, AL10-N03, has a much lower radial velocity (33 km/s), discrepant proper motions, and low extinction (AV about 4 mag), and is rejected as a foreground interloper.

Load-bearing premise

The argument assumes that the effective temperatures and microturbulent velocities derived from fitting OH, CN, and CO molecular lines are not themselves controlled by the carbon and nitrogen abundances being measured, so that the inferred carbon depletion, nitrogen enhancement, and 12C/13C ratios are intrinsic rather than artifacts of the parameter fitting.

Editorial extensions

If this is right

If the membership and abundance results hold, the Scutum complex's recent star formation has a slightly subsolar, thin-disk-like chemistry, so the innermost Galaxy is not necessarily the most metal-rich region today.
The abundance pattern of these ten RSGs closely matches the earlier results for RSGC3, indicating a chemically homogeneous complex across the clusters and associations.
The 12C/13C values of 9-13 and the measured C/N ratios are consistent with stellar evolution predictions for RSGs near the end of their lives, supporting the use of RSG abundances as evolutionary tracers.
The 1317.8 nm diffuse interstellar band can be used as a reddening indicator for heavily obscured supergiants, giving extinction estimates consistent with infrared photometry.

Reading between the lines

Editorial extensions of the paper, not claims the author makes directly.

If the CNO signature survives a re-analysis in which effective temperature and microturbulence are re-optimized for each assumed CNO abundance, then the low 12C/13C ratios would support extra mixing in RSG atmospheres beyond standard first dredge-up; the paper's own parameter degeneracy discussion makes this the natural test.
The subsolar iron found in these young inner-disk associations, if it extends to more of the Scutum complex, would weigh against a simple inside-out enrichment gradient and favour dilution of the star-forming gas by low-metallicity inflow; a larger RSG sample at similar Galactocentric radii could discriminate.
Because the same DIB feature and calibration are available across GIANO-B spectra, the method could be applied to other obscured young clusters to build a homogeneous extinction scale independent of stellar SED fitting.

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Editorial analysis

A structured set of objections, weighed in public.

Desk editor's note, referee report, and a circularity audit.

Desk Editor's Note

read the letter

Two things to know. The paper provides the first high-resolution NIR abundance measurements for red supergiants in Alicante 7 and Alicante 10, extending the group's earlier Scutum complex work. The analysis is careful and the abundance patterns are consistent with what we already knew about RSGC2 and RSGC3. The main weakness is real but contained: the effective temperatures and microturbulences are set by fitting the same OH, CN, and CO molecules whose CNO abundances are the paper's headline result, and the claimed independence is asserted rather than demonstrated.

What is actually new: ten member stars (one interloper is cleanly excluded by radial velocity, proper motion, and extinction), full YJHK spectra at R=50,000, abundances for about twenty elements, and an independent DIB-based extinction estimate that matches photometry. The membership analysis is straightforward and convincing. The error budget is explicit, including systematic terms from temperature, gravity, and microturbulence. The C depletion, N enhancement, and 12C/13C ratios of 9–13 are in the direction expected for CN-cycled material in evolved massive stars.

Where it is soft. The stress-test note is right to focus on the Teff/xi–CNO coupling. In cool O-rich atmospheres, CO, CN, and OH formation is coupled through chemical equilibrium, so a change in the assumed C/N/O can shift the best-fit parameters. The paper says a simultaneous fit is possible only in a narrow range regardless of CNO abundances, but it does not show the grid or a sensitivity test. That matters because the C and N anomalies are the only non-solar [X/Fe] results and drive the discussion. That said, the metallicity result ([Fe/H] ≈ −0.18 to −0.22) is based mostly on atomic lines and is not hostage to the molecular fitting, and the CNO pattern matches stellar evolution predictions and prior measurements of nearby RSGs. So I think the central finding is probably right; the magnitude of the C and N anomalies might carry more systematic uncertainty than the quoted 0.15–0.20 dex. Minor quibbles: log g is fixed at 0.0, a few elements rely on single lines, and the reduced spectra and model grids are not public, which limits independent verification.

Who this is for: people working on inner-disk chemical evolution and RSG nucleosynthesis. It is a modest increment, not a breakthrough, but it is the kind of careful observational work that moves a field forward incrementally. A serious referee should engage with the degeneracy and ask for a quantitative demonstration; the paper will be stronger for it. It deserves peer review, not a desk rejection.

Referee Report

3 major / 6 minor

Summary. The paper presents GIANO-B high-resolution (R~50,000) YJHK spectra of eleven red supergiants toward the Alicante 7 and Alicante 10 associations in the Scutum complex. Radial velocities, Gaia DR2 proper motions, and DIB-based extinction estimates are combined to assess cluster membership, leading to the exclusion of AL10-N03 from Alicante 10. Using LTE spectral synthesis with MARCS model atmospheres, the authors derive effective temperatures (3500-3700 K), microturbulence (3-4 km/s), and chemical abundances for iron-peak, CNO, alpha, light, and a few neutron-capture elements. They report slightly subsolar iron abundances ([Fe/H] about -0.18 to -0.22 dex), approximately solar-scaled [X/Fe] for most elements, carbon depletion, nitrogen enhancement, and low 12C/13C ratios (9-13), which they interpret as evidence for CN-cycled material at the stellar surfaces. The paper concludes that the two associations are chemically homogeneous and consistent with the parent RSGC3 cluster.

Significance. If reliable, these measurements are scientifically valuable: the Scutum complex is heavily obscured and difficult to observe, and the simultaneous YJHK coverage of GIANO-B allows a large number of atomic and molecular lines to be measured from a single exposure. The DIB-based extinction estimate at 1317.8 nm provides an independent reddening check, and the membership filtering using RVs, proper motions, and extinction is clearly presented. The abundance analysis explicitly propagates line-to-line scatter and atmospheric-parameter uncertainties, and the results extend the authors' previous work on RSGC2 and RSGC3 to two neighboring associations. The main astrophysical outcome—carbon depletion with nitrogen enhancement and low 12C/13C—is consistent with theoretical expectations for CN-cycled material in evolved red supergiants. However, the CNO-specific conclusions rest on the assertion that the molecular-line fits determine Teff and microturbulence independently of the adopted CNO abundances, and this assertion is not demonstrated in the manuscript.

major comments (3)

[Section 4.1] The sentence "A simultaneous reasonable fit of all the molecular lines and bandheads can be obtained only in a narrow range of temperature, gravity, and microturbulence, regardless of the adopted CNO abundances" is a load-bearing assertion but is not supported by any calculation in the paper. The same OH, CN, and CO lines are used both to set the stellar parameters and to derive the CNO abundances, and in LTE chemical equilibrium these molecules are coupled through the available carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen. Because Sec. 4.1 also notes that CO bandheads become weak thermometers below 3800 K, the temperature constraint for these stars (Teff=3500-3700 K) relies heavily on the CNO-sensitive CN and OH features. The authors should provide a concrete test, for example by re-fitting Teff and xi on a grid with CNO abundances fixed at solar-scaled, C-depleted/N-enhanced, and other values, and showing that the resulting best-fit parameters and CNO abundances do not shift beyond the quoted uncertainties. Without such a demonstration, the derived [C/Fe], [N/Fe], and 12C/13C values may be partly artifacts of the parameter fitting rather than intrinsic stellar properties.
[Section 4.2] The systematic error budget is computed by propagating perturbations of ±100 K in Teff, ±0.5 dex in log g, and ±0.5 km/s in microturbulence around the adopted best-fit parameters, but it does not include any term for a possible bias in the adopted parameters themselves caused by the assumed CNO abundances. Given the concern raised in the previous comment, this budget does not cover the main systematic risk for the central CNO results. The authors should either add an explicit systematic term that accounts for the CNO-dependence of the parameter solution or show quantitatively, with fits at multiple CNO assumptions, that such a bias is smaller than the quoted 0.15-0.20 dex.
[Section 5, Table 1] The surface gravity is fixed to log g=0.0 for all stars rather than derived, even though Sec. 4.1 states that CN lines are gravity-sensitive. The paper should justify this assumption for the relevant RSG parameter range, for example by comparing with evolutionary masses and luminosities, and should explicitly show the sensitivity of the CNO abundances to log g within the adopted ±0.5 dex error. If the error formula already covers this, the manuscript should state this clearly for C, N, and O.

minor comments (6)

[Table 1] The right ascension of AL10-C06 is printed as "18:45.17.0", which appears to be missing a colon; it should probably be "18:45:17.0".
[Section 1.1] The text contains a duplicated article: "the the MW thin disk" should read "the MW thin disk".
[Section 2] The word "tmeasurement" should be "the measurement".
[Table 2] The nitrogen entry for star C09 is printed as "0.16(50" with an unclosed parenthesis; it should be "0.16(50)".
[Figure 5] The caption for Figure 5 reads "Derived average [X/H] chemical abundances", but the text says Figures 4 and 5 show both the mean [X/H] abundances and the [X/Fe] abundance ratios. The caption appears to be mislabeled and should likely read "[X/Fe]".
[References] The reference list contains several formatting problems, including a truncated entry for Geballe et al. and an apparently incomplete entry for Genovali et al.; these should be corrected during copyediting.

Circularity Check

0 steps flagged · score 0.0 of 10

No significant circularity: the abundance results are measurements from independent synthetic-spectrum fitting and external line lists; the Teff/CNO coupling is a systematic-uncertainty caveat, not a definitional reduction.

full rationale

The paper's central claims (RSG membership, slightly subsolar [Fe/H], solar-scaled [X/Fe], C depletion, N enhancement, and low 12C/13C) are derived by comparing observed GIANO-B spectra with synthetic spectra computed from MARCS model atmospheres, literature atomic and molecular line lists, and a standard solar reference (Grevesse & Sauval 1998). No quantity is defined in terms of the quantity it is used to predict, and no fitted parameter is renamed as a prediction: the stellar parameters (Teff, log g, microturbulence) are first estimated from a simultaneous fit of molecular features, and the CNO abundances are then outputs of the spectral synthesis, not inputs that force the reported pattern. The only potentially degenerate step is that OH, CN, and CO lines are used both to set Teff/microturbulence and to measure CNO abundances. The paper explicitly addresses this by asserting that a simultaneous reasonable fit of all molecular lines and bandheads is obtained 'only in a narrow range of temperature, gravity, and microturbulence, regardless of the adopted CNO abundances' (Sec. 4.1). Whether or not that assertion is fully demonstrated, this is an LTE analysis accuracy/systematic-uncertainty concern, not a circular derivation: no equation in the paper reduces the CNO conclusion to the adopted parameters by construction. The self-citations to Origlia et al. (2013, 2016) describe the spectral-synthesis code, error conventions, and a consistency check with previously measured RSGC3 stars; they are not used as a uniqueness theorem, and the analysis is anchored to independent external inputs (MARCS atmospheres, published line lists, Gaia DR2 astrometry, and the DIB extinction calibration of Hamano et al. 2015, 2016). Therefore the derivation is self-contained for the purposes of the circularity pass, and any residual concern about the Teff/CNO molecular-line degeneracy belongs to correctness risk rather than circularity.

Assumptions & free parameters 5 free parameters · 5 assumptions · 0 invented entities

The central abundance results depend on fitted stellar parameters (Teff, xi), an adopted gravity, and external calibrations (DIB, solar reference). These are standard in the field but are not independently verified in the paper. No new physical entities are introduced.

free parameters (5)

Effective temperature Teff = 3500-3700 K per star
Derived by fitting OH, CN, CO molecular bandheads and line profiles in the GIANO-B spectra (Sec. 4.1). The adopted grid steps are 100 K, and the values are used to compute all abundances.
Microturbulence xi = 3-4 km/s per star
Derived from the CO bandhead shapes and line widths (Sec. 4.1); affects line broadening in the synthetic spectra.
Surface gravity log g = 0.0 (adopted for all stars)
Fixed by hand rather than derived; typical for RSGs but affects gravity-sensitive species and molecular equilibria (Sec. 5).
Macroturbulence velocity = 9-10 km/s
Additional Gaussian broadening needed to match line profiles; not derived from first principles (Sec. 5).
DIB extinction scaling (AV from EW at 1317.8 nm) = AV in 10-16 mag via R=3.1 and Hamano et al. (2015, 2016) calibration
Used to verify membership and compare with literature E(J-K); depends on the adopted DIB calibration and R=3.1.

assumptions (5)

domain assumption LTE approximation is valid in the line-forming regions of these RSG atmospheres.
The synthesis code uses LTE (Sec. 4). Non-LTE effects could shift abundance scales, especially for Fe and CNO, but are not considered.
domain assumption MARCS model atmospheres are representative of these red supergiants.
Synthetic spectra are computed with MARCS models (Sec. 4). The atmospheres use standard mixing-length prescriptions; RSG winds and inhomogeneities are not modeled.
domain assumption The line list (Kurucz, Biemont & Grevesse 1973, Melendez & Barbuy 1999, molecular compilations) has accurate gf values and wavelengths for the fitted lines.
The abundance results depend on the oscillator strengths and molecular data. Errors in gf propagate directly to abundances.
domain assumption The DIB at 1317.8 nm is a reliable extinction tracer with the Hamano et al. (2015, 2016) E(B-V) calibration.
Used to derive AV; if the DIB strength varies with environment, the extinction estimates could be biased. The paper notes the large scatter of DIB strength for similar extinction.
domain assumption Gaia DR2 proper motions are reliable at these magnitudes and reddening.
Used for membership assessment; fainter, reddened sources may have larger astrometric uncertainties (Fig. 2).

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Cite this review

Pith. "Pith review of Stellar population astrophysics (SPA) with the TNG. GIANO-B spectroscopy of red supergiants in Alicante 7 and Alicante 10." pith.science (2026). https://pith.science/paper/7LUZLMPL

@misc{pith2026190807779,
  author       = {Pith},
  title        = {Pith review of: Stellar population astrophysics (SPA) with the TNG. GIANO-B spectroscopy of red supergiants in Alicante 7 and Alicante 10},
  year         = {2026},
  howpublished = {\url{https://pith.science/paper/7LUZLMPL}},
  note         = {Machine review of arXiv:1908.07779}
}

read the original abstract

The Scutum complex in the inner disk of the Galaxy hosts a number of young clusters and associations of red supergiant stars that are heavily obscured by dust extinction. These stars are important tracers of the recent star formation and chemical enrichment history in the inner Galaxy. Within the SPA Large Programme at the TNG, we secured GIANO-B high-resolution (R=50,000) YJHK spectra of 11 red supergiants toward the Alicante 7 and Alicante 10 associations near the RSGC3 cluster. Taking advantage of the full YJHK spectral coverage of GIANO in a single exposure, we were able to measure several hundreds of atomic and molecular lines that are suitable for chemical abundance determinations. We also measured a prominent diffuse interstellar band at lambda=1317.8 nm (vacuum). This provides an independent reddening estimate. The radial velocities, Gaia proper motions, and extinction of seven red supergiants in Alicante 7 and three in Alicante 10 are consistent with them being members of the associations. One star toward Alicante 10 has kinematics and low extinction that are inconsistent with a membership. By means of spectral synthesis and line equivalent width measurements, we obtained chemical abundances for iron-peak, CNO, alpha, other light, and a few neutron-capture elements. We found average slightly subsolar iron abundances and solar-scaled [X/Fe] abundance patterns for most of the elements, consistent with a thin-disk chemistry. We found depletion of [C/Fe], enhancement of [N/Fe], and relatively low 12C/13C<15, which is consistent with CN cycled material and possibly some additional mixing in their atmospheres.

Figures

Figures reproduced from arXiv: 1908.07779 by the authors.

**Figure 1.** Portion of the normalized telluric corrected spectra, showing the prominent DIB feature at 1317.8 nm. The dashed purple line is the telluric correction applied to the data. be appreciated by some visual inspection. Variations in temperature, gravity, and microturbulence smaller than the above values are difficult to distinguish because the sensitivity of the lines is limited and the stellar parameters are degenerat… view at source ↗

**Figure 2.** Gaia DR2 proper motions for the observed stars in Alicante 7 (left panel) and Alicante 10 (right panel). The red dot indicates star N03, whose kinematics is inconsistent with being a member of the Alicante 10 association. The derived values of AV from the DIB feature at 1317.8 nm are consistent with the high extinction toward the Scutum complex for all but star AL10-N03 (see [PITH_FULL_IMAGE:figures/full_fig_p005_2.png] view at source ↗

**Figure 3.** [PITH_FULL_IMAGE:figures/full_fig_p005_3.png] view at source ↗

Figures from the paper (2 more)

**Figure 4.** Figure 4: Derived average [X/H] chemical abundances and corresponding errors for the observed RSGs, candidate members of the Alicante 7 and Alicante 10 associations. Dotted lines mark the average [Fe/H] values in each association [PITH_FULL_IMAGE:figures/full_fig_p007_4.png]

**Figure 5.** Figure 5: Derived average [X/H] chemical abundances and corresponding errors for the observed RSGs, candidate members of the Alicante 7 and Alicante 10 associations. 6. Discussion and conclusions For the seven RSGs in Alicante 7 and for three of the four RSGs of Alicante 10, the…

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Pith tools

Reviewed August 14, 2026 · model on record in the stance chip above.

[1] [1]

J., Kobulnicky, H

Alexander, M. J., Kobulnicky, H. A., Clemens, D. P., Jameson, K., Pinnick, A., & Pavel, M., 2009, AJ, 137, 4824

work page 2009

[2] [2]

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Biemont, E., & Grevesse, N. 1973, Atomic Data and Nuclear Data tables , 12, 221

work page 1973

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2007, A&A, 462, 943A&A, 462, 943

Cescutti, G., Matteucci, F., François, P., & Chiappini, C. 2007, A&A, 462, 943A&A, 462, 943

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