Recognition: unknown
Beyond Cloud-9: The case for discovering more HI-rich failed halos
Pith reviewed 2026-05-07 09:27 UTC · model grok-4.3
The pith
Simulations predict more HI-rich starless halos can be found by searching the HI-poor regime in the local universe.
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
We find that HI-rich failed halos in the simulations span different regions of the M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane, with FIREbox objects in a narrow regime, NIVARIA-LG extending to wider M_200 and higher masses, and Recal-EAGLE having similar HI but lower gas and halo masses. Differences with Cloud-9 may be driven by environmental factors and gas self-shielding, which could limit analytic schemes to infer dark matter halo information from 21 cm HI observations. We predict that more HI-rich starless halos can be discovered by exploring the HI-poor regime in the local universe rather than HI-rich populations at high redshift.
What carries the argument
The HI-rich failed halo, defined as a dark matter halo without stars but containing significant neutral hydrogen, acts as the central object whose properties in simulations are used to assess discovery prospects and limitations of current observation methods.
Load-bearing premise
The premise that differences between the simulated HI-rich failed halos and Cloud-9 are caused by environmental factors or gas self-shielding rather than other simulation limitations.
What would settle it
Detection or non-detection of additional HI-rich starless halos in a targeted survey of the local HI-poor regime, or confirmation via spectroscopy that Cloud-9 lacks a stellar component and is isolated.
Figures
read the original abstract
HI-rich starless halos, should they exist, hold great promise for elucidating properties of dark matter halos. This Letter examines the properties of HI-rich failed halos at redshift zero across state-of-the-art cosmological simulations (FIREbox, NIVARIA-LG and Recal-EAGLE). First we compare two numerical analogs with Cloud-9, purported to be the first discovery of a starless HI-rich halo. We argue that differences may be driven by environmental factors, and/or the treatment of gas self-shielding -- which might further limit existing analytic schemes aimed at inferring dark matter halo information from 21 cm HI observations. We also find that the failed halo samples in the three simulations span different regions of the HI-gas-halo mass ($M_{\rm HI}-M_{\rm gas}-M_{\rm 200}$) plane. FIREbox objects occupy a very narrow regime, while NIVARIA-LG extends to a wider range of $M_{\rm 200}$ values - and achieves higher $M_{\rm HI}$ and $M_{\rm gas}$ values. Recal-EAGLE $M_{\rm HI}$ values are similar to FIREbox, albeit with lower gas and halo masses. Lastly, we predict that more HI-rich starless halos can be discovered by exploring the HI-poor regime in the local universe, rather than HI-rich populations at high redshift. Overall, we advocate for the allocation of resources to detect and characterize other HI-rich (and HI-poor) failed halos in the local universe, plus dedicated follow-up spectroscopic observations that scrutinize claims to the absence of a faint stellar component, and that assess their isolation status in detail.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. This Letter analyzes HI-rich failed (starless) halos at z=0 in three cosmological simulations (FIREbox, NIVARIA-LG, Recal-EAGLE). It compares numerical analogs to Cloud-9, attributes differences to environment or gas self-shielding (which may limit analytic HI-to-halo inferences), shows that the three simulations populate non-overlapping regions of the M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane, and predicts that more HI-rich starless halos will be discovered by targeting the HI-poor regime locally rather than HI-rich populations at high redshift. The authors advocate for dedicated local-universe observations and spectroscopic follow-up to confirm isolation and absence of faint stars.
Significance. If the central prediction holds, the work would usefully redirect observational strategy toward local HI-poor regimes for discovering dark-matter-halo candidates and would highlight limitations of existing analytic schemes that infer halo properties from 21 cm data. The multi-simulation comparison is a positive feature, but the absence of convergence among the three suites on the location of failed halos in parameter space weakens the grounding of the forward-looking claim.
major comments (2)
- [Abstract / comparison section] Abstract and the section comparing simulations to Cloud-9: the statement that differences 'may be driven by environmental factors, and/or the treatment of gas self-shielding' is presented without any quantitative test (matched volumes, resolution series, or explicit variation of the self-shielding threshold). This claim is load-bearing for the secondary assertion that such differences 'might further limit existing analytic schemes'.
- [M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane analysis] The section on the M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane: the three simulations place their failed-halo samples in non-overlapping regions (FIREbox confined to a narrow strip; NIVARIA-LG extending to higher M_200 and M_HI; Recal-EAGLE at lower M_gas and M_200 while matching FIREbox M_HI). No convergence test or anchoring to observations is provided to establish which placement is closer to reality or whether the HI-poor end is preferentially populated once physics is fixed. This directly undermines the robustness of the central prediction that observers should target the HI-poor regime locally.
minor comments (2)
- [Abstract] The abstract provides no quantitative error bars, sample sizes, or explicit selection criteria for the HI-rich starless objects, making it difficult to judge the statistical significance of the reported differences across simulations.
- [Figures] Figure captions and axis labels should explicitly distinguish the three simulation samples and indicate the region occupied by each in the mass plane.
Simulated Author's Rebuttal
We thank the referee for the constructive and detailed report. We address the two major comments point by point below, providing clarifications and noting revisions made to the manuscript.
read point-by-point responses
-
Referee: [Abstract / comparison section] Abstract and the section comparing simulations to Cloud-9: the statement that differences 'may be driven by environmental factors, and/or the treatment of gas self-shielding' is presented without any quantitative test (matched volumes, resolution series, or explicit variation of the self-shielding threshold). This claim is load-bearing for the secondary assertion that such differences 'might further limit existing analytic schemes'.
Authors: We agree that the original phrasing was qualitative and would benefit from greater precision. The three simulations differ in volume, resolution, and subgrid physics, including distinct implementations of self-shielding (e.g., varying density thresholds and UV background treatments). In the revised manuscript we have added a short paragraph in the comparison section that explicitly lists these differences in the simulation setups and frames the environmental and self-shielding factors as plausible contributors to the observed discrepancies, while removing the stronger claim that they 'might further limit' analytic schemes. The revised text now states only that such differences 'could introduce additional uncertainties' not captured by single-simulation analytic models. This preserves the core observation that multi-simulation comparisons reveal modeling sensitivities while acknowledging the absence of a controlled quantitative test. revision: partial
-
Referee: [M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane analysis] The section on the M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane: the three simulations place their failed-halo samples in non-overlapping regions (FIREbox confined to a narrow strip; NIVARIA-LG extending to higher M_200 and M_HI; Recal-EAGLE at lower M_gas and M_200 while matching FIREbox M_HI). No convergence test or anchoring to observations is provided to establish which placement is closer to reality or whether the HI-poor end is preferentially populated once physics is fixed. This directly undermines the robustness of the central prediction that observers should target the HI-poor regime locally.
Authors: The non-overlapping regions are intentionally highlighted to illustrate the sensitivity of failed-halo properties to simulation-specific physics and environments. We do not assert that any single simulation is definitive; rather, the spread indicates that the location of HI-rich failed halos remains uncertain. Our forward-looking prediction is therefore not that the HI-poor regime is guaranteed to be the correct target, but that local observations across a range of environments (including lower-M_gas regimes populated by Recal-EAGLE) offer a practical way to test the models empirically, in contrast to focusing exclusively on high-redshift HI-rich systems. We have added a new paragraph in the discussion section that explicitly acknowledges the lack of convergence, notes the current absence of observational anchors (given that confirmed HI-rich failed halos remain rare), and calls for future standardized cross-simulation comparisons. This addition strengthens the manuscript by making the limitations transparent while retaining the recommendation for dedicated local-universe searches. revision: partial
Circularity Check
No circularity: prediction follows from independent simulation comparisons
full rationale
The paper derives its central prediction—that more HI-rich starless halos may be found by targeting the HI-poor regime locally—directly from the placement of failed-halo samples in the M_HI-M_gas-M_200 plane across three distinct simulation suites (FIREbox, NIVARIA-LG, Recal-EAGLE) contrasted with the Cloud-9 candidate. Differences are attributed to environment or self-shielding without any equation, fitted parameter, or self-citation reducing the claim to a tautology. No self-definitional loops, fitted-input predictions, or imported uniqueness theorems appear; the argument remains a forward observational suggestion grounded in external numerical realizations rather than internal redefinition.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
axioms (2)
- domain assumption Standard Lambda-CDM cosmology and the sub-grid physics prescriptions of the three simulations accurately represent real halo gas evolution
- domain assumption Cloud-9 is an isolated HI-rich starless halo with no undetected faint stellar component
Reference graph
Works this paper leans on
-
[1]
S., Benítez-Llambay, A., Beaton, R., et al
Anand, G. S., Ben´ ıtez-Llambay, A., Beaton, R., et al. 2025, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2508.20157, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2508.20157
-
[2]
Anand, G. S., Rizzi, L., Tully, R. B., et al. 2021, AJ, 162, 80, doi: 10.3847/1538-3881/ac0440
-
[3]
and Conroy, Charlie and Wechsler, Risa H
Behroozi, P. S., Conroy, C., & Wechsler, R. H. 2010, ApJ, 717, 379, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/717/1/379
-
[4]
Benavides, J. A., Sales, L. V., Abadi, M. G., et al. 2021, Nature Astronomy, 5, 1255, doi: 10.1038/s41550-021-01458-1 Ben´ ıtez-Llambay, A., Dutta, R., Fumagalli, M., & Navarro, J. F. 2024, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2406.18643, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2406.18643
-
[5]
2020, MNRAS, 498, 4887, doi: 10.1093/mnras/staa2698
Benitez-Llambay, A., & Frenk, C. 2020, MNRAS, 498, 4887, doi: 10.1093/mnras/staa2698
-
[6]
2021, ApJL, 921, L9, doi: 10.3847/2041-8213/ac3006
Benitez-Llambay, A., & Fumagalli, M. 2021, ApJL, 921, L9, doi: 10.3847/2041-8213/ac3006
-
[7]
Benitez-Llambay, A., & Navarro, J. F. 2023, ApJ, 956, 1, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/acf767 Ben´ ıtez-Llambay, A., Navarro, J. F., Frenk, C. S., et al. 2017, MNRAS, 465, 3913, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stw2982
-
[8]
Bradford, J. D., Geha, M. C., & Blanton, M. R. 2015, ApJ, 809, 146, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/809/2/146
-
[9]
Bryan, G. L., & Norman, M. L. 1998, ApJ, 495, 80, doi: 10.1086/305262
-
[10]
Bullock, J. S., Kolatt, T. S., Sigad, Y., et al. 2001, MNRAS, 321, 559, doi: 10.1046/j.1365-8711.2001.04068.x
-
[11]
2023, MNRAS, 519, 4074, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stac3696
Chakraborty, A., & Roy, N. 2023, MNRAS, 519, 4074, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stac3696
-
[12]
2021, ApJ, 909, 112, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/abd947
Diemer, B. 2021, ApJ, 909, 112, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/abd947
-
[13]
Rethinking visual chain -of-thought: Spatial grounding vs. linguistic traces,
Mahler, G. 2025, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2506.09122, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2506.09122
-
[14]
Errani, R., Navarro, J. F., Smith, S. E. T., & McConnachie, A. W. 2024, ApJ, 965, 20, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/ad2267 Faucher-Gigu` ere, C.-A., Lidz, A., Zaldarriaga, M., &
-
[15]
Hernquist, L. 2009, ApJ, 703, 1416, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/703/2/1416 7
-
[16]
doi:10.1093/mnras/stad1205 , arxivId =
Feldmann, R., Quataert, E., Faucher-Gigu` ere, C.-A., et al. 2023, MNRAS, 522, 3831, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stad1205
-
[17]
Fitts, A., Boylan-Kolchin, M., Elbert, O. D., et al. 2017, MNRAS, 471, 3547, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stx1757 Garc´ ıa-Bethencourt, G., Di Cintio, A., Comer´ on, S., et al. 2026, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2601.04024, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2601.04024
work page internal anchor Pith review Pith/arXiv arXiv doi:10.1093/mnras/stx1757 2017
-
[18]
Gozman, K., Bell, E. F., Smercina, A., et al. 2023, ApJ, 947, 21, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/acbe3a
-
[19]
2012, ApJ, 746, 125, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/746/2/125
Haardt, F., & Madau, P. 2012, ApJ, 746, 125, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/746/2/125
-
[20]
2023, MNRAS, 518, 6305, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stac3282
Herzog, G., Ben´ ıtez-Llambay, A., & Fumagalli, M. 2023, MNRAS, 518, 6305, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stac3282
-
[21]
FIRE-2 Simulations: Physics versus Numerics in Galaxy Formation
Hopkins, P. F., Wetzel, A., Kereˇ s, D., et al. 2018, MNRAS, 480, 800, doi: 10.1093/mnras/sty1690
-
[22]
Ibata, R. A., Lewis, G. F., Conn, A. R., et al. 2013, Nature, 493, 62, doi: 10.1038/nature11717
-
[23]
Jeon, S., Yi, S. K., Contini, E., et al. 2025, ApJ, 988, 136, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/ade2e0
-
[24]
G., Janowiecki, S., Dey, S., et al
Jones, M. G., Janowiecki, S., Dey, S., et al. 2024, ApJL, 966, L15, doi: 10.3847/2041-8213/ad3ef5
-
[25]
2024, Research Notes of the American Astronomical Society, 8, 24, doi: 10.3847/2515-5172/ad1ee6
Karunakaran, A., & Spekkens, K. 2024, Research Notes of the American Astronomical Society, 8, 24, doi: 10.3847/2515-5172/ad1ee6
-
[26]
Knollmann, S. R., & Knebe, A. 2009, ApJS, 182, 608, doi: 10.1088/0067-0049/182/2/608
-
[27]
S., Lee, J., Shin, J., & Song, H
Lee, G., Hwang, H. S., Lee, J., Shin, J., & Song, H. 2024, ApJ, 962, 129, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/ad1e5d
-
[28]
Minchin, R., Taylor, R., Momjian, E., Deshev, B., & Part´ ık, V. 2026, ApJ, 999, 103, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/ae3e82 Mitraˇ sinovi´ c, A., Grozdanovi´ c, M., Lalovi´ c, A., et al. 2026, A&A, 705, L9, doi: 10.1051/0004-6361/202558391
-
[29]
FAST and Dark: A catalogue of Dark Galaxy Candidates within 50 Mpc
Monaci, M., Forbes, D. A., Gannon, J. S., et al. 2026, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2604.14699. https://arxiv.org/abs/2604.14699
work page internal anchor Pith review Pith/arXiv arXiv 2026
-
[30]
Montes, M., Trujillo, I., Karunakaran, A., et al. 2024, A&A, 681, A15, doi: 10.1051/0004-6361/202347667
-
[31]
Moreno, J., Torrey, P., Ellison, S. L., et al. 2019, MNRAS, 485, 1320, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stz417
-
[32]
Moreno, J., Danieli, S., Bullock, J. S., et al. 2022, Nature Astronomy, 6, 496, doi: 10.1038/s41550-021-01598-4
-
[33]
Moreno, J., Wheeler, C., Mercado, F. J., et al. 2026, ApJ, 997, 181, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/ae29ae
-
[34]
Moster, B. P., Somerville, R. S., Maulbetsch, C., et al. 2010, ApJ, 710, 903, doi: 10.1088/0004-637X/710/2/903
-
[35]
2011, International Journal of Modern Physics D, 20, 989, doi: 10.1142/S0218271811019335
Nan, R., Li, D., Jin, C., et al. 2011, International Journal of Modern Physics D, 20, 989, doi: 10.1142/S0218271811019335
-
[36]
MNRAS , archivePrefix = "arXiv",
Rahmati, A., Pawlik, A. H., Raiˇ cevi` c, M., & Schaye, J. 2013, MNRAS, 430, 2427, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stt066
-
[37]
P., Pontzen, A., Agertz, O., et al
Rey, M. P., Pontzen, A., Agertz, O., et al. 2022, MNRAS, 511, 5672, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stac502 Rom´ an, J., Jones, M. G., Montes, M., et al. 2021, A&A, 649, L14, doi: 10.1051/0004-6361/202141001
-
[38]
Sales, L. V., Wetzel, A., & Fattahi, A. 2022, Nature Astronomy, 6, 897, doi: 10.1038/s41550-022-01689-w
-
[39]
Sawala, T., Frenk, C. S., Fattahi, A., et al. 2016a, MNRAS, 456, 85, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stv2597
-
[40]
Sawala, T., Frenk, C. S., Fattahi, A., et al. 2016b, MNRAS, 457, 1931, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stw145
-
[41]
The COLIBRE project: cosmological hydrodynamical simulations of galaxy formation and evolution
Schaye, J., Chaikin, E., Schaller, M., et al. 2025, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2508.21126, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2508.21126
work page internal anchor Pith review Pith/arXiv arXiv doi:10.48550/arxiv.2508.21126 2025
-
[42]
Smercina, A., Bell, E. F., Price, P. A., et al. 2018, ApJ, 863, 152, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/aad2d6
-
[43]
Trentham, N., M¨ oller, O., & Ramirez-Ruiz, E. 2001, MNRAS, 322, 658, doi: 10.1046/j.1365-8711.2001.04158.x
-
[44]
2026, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2603.05597, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2603.05597
Turini, F., & Benitez-Llambay, A. 2026, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2603.05597, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2603.05597
work page internal anchor Pith review doi:10.48550/arxiv.2603.05597 2026
-
[45]
Turk, M. J., Smith, B. D., Oishi, J. S., et al. 2011, ApJS, 192, 9, doi: 10.1088/0067-0049/192/1/9 van Dokkum, P., Danieli, S., Cohen, Y., et al. 2018, Nature, 555, 629, doi: 10.1038/nature25767 ˇSiljeg, B., Adams, E. A. K., Oosterloo, T. A., et al. 2026, A&A, 708, A40, doi: 10.1051/0004-6361/202556900
-
[46]
Wheeler, C., Hopkins, P. F., Pace, A. B., et al. 2019, MNRAS, 490, 4447, doi: 10.1093/mnras/stz2887
-
[47]
Zheng, H., Jiang, F., Liao, S., & Libeskind, N. I. 2025, arXiv e-prints, arXiv:2511.16726, doi: 10.48550/arXiv.2511.16726
-
[48]
2023, ApJ, 952, 130, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/acdcf5
Zhou, R., Zhu, M., Yang, Y., et al. 2023, ApJ, 952, 130, doi: 10.3847/1538-4357/acdcf5
discussion (0)
Sign in with ORCID, Apple, or X to comment. Anyone can read and Pith papers without signing in.