REVIEW 4 major objections 6 minor 50 references
Scaling Laws for Robust Comparison of Open Foundation Language-Vision Models and Datasets
T0 review · 4 major / 6 minor · reviewed 2026-08-07 · deepseek-v4-flash
Pith's one-line read Adding a captioning loss to contrastive training (MaMMUT) gives a steeper error-versus-compute curve than CLIP, with the ranking flipping above a stable crossover near $10^{10}$–$10^{11}$ GFLOPs.
desk verdict Dense, reproducible scaling-law comparison that makes a plausible case for MaMMUT over CLIP at scale; the crossover location is fit-dependent, but the qualitative trend survives scrutiny. read the letter →
The pith
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
The reading
What carries the argument
The mechanism that carries the argument is a parametric scaling-law fit to the Pareto front of measured error. For each compute budget the authors keep the training run with the lowest downstream error, binning GFLOPs logarithmically as in prior work, and fit $L(C)=A_c(C+B_c)^{-\alpha_c}+E_c$: a power law with a saturation term $B_c$ capturing chance-level behavior at tiny compute and a floor term $E_c$ capturing an irreducible error, chosen to keep the curve positive, monotone decreasing, and bounded below. Fit quality is checked by fitting only points below a threshold $C_{\rm threshold}$ and computing the mean squared error on the held-out higher-compute points, and uncertainty is propagated through the Jacobian of the fit into 95% confidence intervals. The same functional form is applied to samples seen $D$, producing data-efficiency curves and compute-optimal dataset sizes $D_{\rm opt}(C)=D_0 C^a$. The comparison statistic is the compute location where the CLIP and MaMMUT curves cross, and its stability across datasets, downstream tasks, and learning-rate schedules is the paper's evidence that the ranking is genuine.
What would settle it
Train CLIP and MaMMUT at a single large budget near $5\times10^{11}$ to $10^{12}$ GFLOPs on the same data with less than about 3x repetition and compare zero-shot ImageNet-1k error and MS-COCO R@5: the paper's own fits predict MaMMUT error clearly below CLIP at these scales with reported confidence intervals, so measured MaMMUT error equal to or above CLIP's would falsify the crossover claim. A cheaper probe is the paper's Table 1 prediction of 79.6% versus 81.6% at $2.14\times10^{12}$ GFLOPs, which requires a dataset larger than 1.4B unique pairs to test without repetition confounds.
Extended reading notes
Core claim
On the paper's own terms, the central discovery is that adding a captioning (text-generative) loss to the contrastive loss, as MaMMUT does, changes the scaling law qualitatively: MaMMUT's error curve is steeper, so although standard CLIP achieves lower error at equal compute on small budgets, the two curves cross and MaMMUT stays below CLIP for every compute budget above roughly $10^{10}$--$10^{11}$ GFLOPs. The crossover is found consistently on DataComp-1.4B, DFN-1.4B, and Re-LAION-1.4B, for zero-shot ImageNet-1k classification, MS-COCO retrieval, and fine-tuned ADE20K segmentation, and with both cosine and constant learning-rate schedules, which the authors take as evidence that the ranking is a property of the training procedures rather than of a particular scale or benchmark. The same fit machinery is then turned on the datasets: DFN-1.4B beats DataComp-1.4B and Re-LAION-1.4B on both classification and retrieval for both architectures, while DataComp-1.4B beats Re-LAION-1.4B on classification but matches it on retrieval. On data efficiency, the fits predict that MaMMUT needs fewer samples to be compute-optimal, and extrapolation to $2.14\times10^{12}$ GFLOPs predicts MaMMUT at 81.6% versus 79.6% for CLIP on ImageNet-1k zero-shot, with the measured 79.2% of the original DataComp CLIP run falling inside the CLIP confidence interval.
Load-bearing premise
The comparison is only as solid as the assumed error curve $L(C)=A_c(C+B_c)^{-\alpha_c}+E_c$ fitted through the best run per compute budget: if that curve does not keep describing error outside the measured range, or if the choice of which runs sit on the best-per-compute front favors one model, then the crossover point and the final ranking could be products of the fitting procedure rather than true differences between the two training methods.
Editorial extensions
If this is right
- Comparisons at a single small scale are misleading: below the crossover CLIP looks better and above it MaMMUT does, so claims about which procedure is 'better' need to state a compute budget.
- Applying the comparison at scale produced openMaMMUT-L/14, which reaches 80.3% zero-shot ImageNet-1k accuracy on 12.8B DataComp-1.4B samples, above the 79.2% of openCLIP at the same budget but below the 82% the fit predicts for low-repetition training.
- Dataset rankings are task-dependent: DFN-1.4B outperforms the other two datasets on both classification and retrieval for both architectures, while DataComp-1.4B beats Re-LAION-1.4B on classification but only ties on retrieval.
- Scaling-law comparison can be run with a constant learning-rate schedule, cutting the compute cost of the derivation by roughly 98% while preserving the same trends and crossover location.
- Under controlled data, SigLIP shows no scaling advantage over CLIP on ImageNet-1k zero-shot accuracy, and decoder-only MaMMUT overtakes encoder-decoder CoCa at equal compute, with captioning-only training (Cap) lagging both.
Reading between the lines
- If the crossover threshold is stable rather than a fit artifact, the paper's curves imply a budget-dependent training recipe: spend a small budget on contrastive-only training and move to the contrastive-plus-captioning objective only above roughly $10^{10}$-$10^{11}$ GFLOPs; the paper reports the crossover but does not frame it as an objective-mixture rule.
- The same Pareto-front fitting could rank axes the paper leaves untested (masked or diffusion losses, text-tower depth, patch size, input resolution) one axis at a time, since each ranking only needs enough runs to define that axis's front rather than a full factorial grid.
- A direct stress test of the extrapolation: the paper's Table 1 predicts 79.6% versus 81.6% ImageNet-1k accuracy at $2.14\times10^{12}$ GFLOPs, so training both models on a dataset with more than about 1.4B unique pairs would check the fit outside its measured range, something current open datasets cannot do without heavy repetition.
- The gap between the measured 80.3% and the predicted 82% at 12.8B samples quantifies a repetition penalty of roughly 1.7 accuracy points; adding a repetition-correction term to the fit would let labs with small open datasets predict their unique-data ceiling, which the paper leaves as future work.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper derives compute-scaling laws for two open vision-language training procedures, CLIP and MaMMUT, on three open datasets (DataComp-1.4B, Re-LAION-1.4B, DFN-1.4B) and uses the fitted curves to compare their scalability. Measurements span model sizes from ViT-S to ViT-H, patch sizes, and samples seen from 1.28M to 3B, with downstream evaluation on zero-shot classification, retrieval, and fine-tuned segmentation. The central claim is that MaMMUT, which adds a captioning loss to the contrastive loss, has a steeper error-versus-compute scaling curve than CLIP and overtakes CLIP at a compute threshold consistently found between 1e10 and 1e11 GFLOPs across datasets, tasks, and learning-rate schedules. The paper also compares datasets (DFN favored over DataComp and Re-LAION), derives data-efficiency and compute-optimal-dataset-size laws, tests a constant-LR schedule that reduces compute cost, and releases training code, intermediate checkpoints, and the openMaMMUT-L/14 model (80.3% zero-shot ImageNet-1k accuracy).
Significance. If the central claim holds, this is a significant and reproducible contribution: it is the first dense scaling-law comparison of open CLIP and MaMMUT training, it explicitly controls for pre-training compute across a wide span, and it shows consistent trends across three datasets, three task types, and two learning-rate schedules. The release of all intermediate checkpoints, raw experiment data, and code is exemplary and makes the analysis independently verifiable. The held-out validation (e.g., Table 8) and the external CLIP match (79.2% within the predicted CI in Table 1) are concrete strengths. However, the headline crossover is a property of a specific four-parameter fitted form, and the paper does not yet demonstrate that the ranking and crossover are stable to the choice of functional form or to the Pareto-front envelope construction; the validation at 12.8B samples is one-sided and repetition-confounded. With the additional robustness analyses suggested below, the work would provide a strong and trustworthy basis for model and dataset comparison via scaling laws.
major comments (4)
- [Sec. 2.3, Eq. (1); App. C, Tabs. 8-9] The central crossover claim is a property of the four-parameter double-saturation form L(C) = A_c(C+B_c)^(-alpha_c)+E_c. The paper selects this form over the three-parameter form of Eq. (3) using held-out RMSE alone, but it never checks whether the ordering of CLIP and MaMMUT, or the crossover location, survives under Eq. (3) or under other comparably good fits. Because E_c is a free asymptotic error, a small change in its fitted value can change which curve is lower at the scales where the claim is made. Please report the predicted ordering and the crossover for Eq. (3), and for at least one alternative form (e.g., a power law with no offset or a form with an additional log term), together with confidence intervals on the crossover; if the ranking flips under any of these forms, the conclusion should be weakened accordingly.
- [Sec. 2.3; Figs. 15-16] The curves being compared are fits to separately constructed Pareto-front envelopes, not to a common set of (N,D) configurations. For each architecture, the envelope is built by taking the minimal-error model per compute bin, so the identity and number of envelope points can differ substantially between CLIP and MaMMUT, and the fitted slope of each envelope can be influenced by which model sizes happen to appear on that architecture's frontier. The paper should report, for each compute bin, which and how many configurations contribute to the CLIP versus MaMMUT envelope, and should show that the fitted crossover and ranking survive (i) fitting all configurations rather than only the envelope, and (ii) restricting the comparison to matched (N,D) grid points. Without such sensitivity analysis, the crossover could reflect a difference in envelope composition rather than a true property of the training procedures.
- [Sec. 3.1, Tab. 1; Sec. 3.7] The validation evidence for the central ranking is incomplete. The external 12.8B CLIP point matches the prediction, but it is repetition-confounded (approximately 9x, as the paper states) and validates only the CLIP curve; the corresponding openMaMMUT point (80.3% versus the no-repetition prediction of 82.0%) is below the prediction and therefore does not test the MaMMUT curve or the crossover. The held-out 3B points in Table 8 do validate each model's extrapolation within confidence intervals, but they are not presented as a matched-compute comparison of the two fitted curves, and the table does not provide a confidence interval for the crossover or for the probability that MaMMUT outperforms CLIP at a target compute budget. Please add such uncertainty quantification for the comparison, or explicitly restrict the claim to a prediction whose dependence on the repetition correction is quantified.
- [Sec. 3.1, Fig. 3; Sec. 2.1] The DFN-1.4B scaling laws are derived from measurements up to only 300M samples seen and model sizes up to L/14, a much narrower span than DataComp-1.4B or Re-LAION-1.4B, and the fitted crossover for DFN appears near or beyond the upper edge of the measured compute range. Since the paper's "consistent across datasets" claim includes DFN, the DFN result is substantially more dependent on the functional form than the other two datasets. The DFN comparison should either be presented with an explicit uncertainty caveat or be supported by additional measurements beyond 300M samples seen.
minor comments (6)
- [Sec. 2.3] The sentence "In general, the relationship between compute and performance follows a power law: L = aC b, where C is compute in FLOPs [10, 37] and C = arg min L(C)" is garbled: the exponent is missing in the typeset formula and the optimal-compute notation C = arg min L(C) is undefined. Please rewrite it.
- [Captions of Figs. 1-3] The figure captions state that MaMMUT takes over CLIP at "larger compute scale > 10^11 GFLOPs" (DataComp, Re-LAION) or "close to 10^11 GFLOPs" (DFN), while Sections 3.1 and 3.6 state the crossover is "between 10^10 and 10^11 GFLOPs". These numbers should be reconciled.
- [Fig. 1, Fig. 2, and related legends] The fitted equations in the figure legends, e.g., "57.86 * (x + exp(18.39)) 0.227 + 0.11", appear to omit the minus sign on the fitted exponent; readers may read 0.227 as a positive exponent. Please use an explicit "-0.227" in all legends.
- [Tab. 2] The reported Dopt confidence interval for the first compute budget, "2.30e+10 (2.75e+10, 1.91e+10)", is not a valid interval because the lower and upper bounds are in reverse order. Please check the reported values.
- [App. C, Tabs. 8-9] In Table 8, the MaMMUT RMSE is reported as 7.57e-03 for both Cthreshold values, while the text says that adding more points reduces RMSE; this suspicious coincidence deserves an explicit explanation or a correction.
- [Sec. 3.3, Fig. 8(b)] The compute-optimal dataset size exponents for CLIP and MaMMUT are both reported as 0.74; given the claimed data-efficiency advantage, the paper should state whether the exponents were fit independently and provide confidence intervals for them.
Circularity Check
No circular derivation: the fitted scaling-law comparison is validated on held-out points and against an external CLIP result; self-citations are methodological, not load-bearing.
full rationale
The paper's central claim is an empirical curve-fitting claim, not a definitional one. Scaling laws of the form L(C) = Ac(C+Bc)^(-alpha_c)+Ec are fitted to measured error rates on a Pareto front, and the MaMMUT-vs-CLIP comparison is read off from the fitted curves. This is not circular: the fitted curves are summaries of the measurements, not quantities defined in terms of the conclusion. The paper partially guards against fit artifacts by fitting only up to a compute threshold and evaluating held-out points (Tab. 8, Fig. 17), and by checking an external CLIP ViT-L-14 12.8B result (79.2%, within the predicted 95% CI of 0.788-0.804). The crossover around 1e10-1e11 GFLOPs is a derived crossing of two fitted curves, and its consistency across datasets, downstream tasks, and LR schedules is independent supporting evidence rather than an input. The choice of the double-saturation functional form over the no-irreducible-error form is justified by RMSE on held-out points (Tab. 8 vs Tab. 9), which is a legitimate model-selection criterion, not circularity. The acknowledged failure of the 12.8B MaMMUT point to reach the prediction (80.3% vs 82%) is an honest limitation due to sample repetition, not a circular step. Self-citations exist -- e.g., [10] for openCLIP methodology and [44] for constant-LR scaling-law derivation -- but they are background/method references; the dense new measurements and open release are independent of those prior results. Fragility of the functional form or of the Pareto-front selection would be a correctness or robustness concern, not a circularity, and the paper does not claim to derive the crossover from first principles. Overall circularity is low and confined to minor, non-load-bearing self-citation.
Assumptions & free parameters
free parameters (9)
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for openCLIP on DataComp-1.4B (IN1k) =
57.862, exp(18.391), -0.227, 0.111
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for openMaMMUT on DataComp-1.4B (IN1k) =
79.970, exp(19.111), -0.233, 0.076
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for CLIP and MaMMUT on DataComp-1.4B (MS-COCO retrieval) =
CLIP: 53.913, exp(18.413), -0.230, 0.216; MaMMUT: 119.751, exp(19.122), -0.263, 0.212
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for CLIP and MaMMUT on Re-LAION-1.4B (IN1k) =
CLIP: 21.54, exp(18.21), -0.173, 0.09; MaMMUT: 25.41, exp(19.18), -0.169, 0.00
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for CLIP and MaMMUT on DFN-1.4B (IN1k) =
CLIP: 9473.08, exp(19.07), -0.498, 0.28; MaMMUT: 3496.51, exp(19.65), -0.428, 0.22
- Ac, Bc, alpha_c, Ec for constant-LR fits (DataComp-1.4B, IN1k) =
CLIP: 14.769, exp(16.725), -0.168, 0.121; MaMMUT: 1850.286, exp(20.521), -0.379, 0.198
- D0 and exponent a in Dopt(C) power law =
CLIP: D0=16.88, a=0.74; MaMMUT: D0=8.66, a=0.74
- lambda (captioning loss weight) =
1
- Cthreshold (fit vs. held-out split) =
2.5e11 or 5e11 GFLOPs
assumptions (6)
- domain assumption Scaling law functional form L(C)=Ac(C+Bc)^(-alpha_c)+Ec with monotonic decrease and positive irreducible error Ec (Eq. 1).
- domain assumption Pareto-front selection: for each compute budget, the model configuration with minimal error rate represents the scaling law.
- domain assumption Compute GFLOPs is a sufficient and comparable measure of training cost across architectures.
- domain assumption Data repetition up to about 3x (3B samples seen on 1.4B unique samples) does not materially distort the scaling law.
- domain assumption Constant learning rate schedules yield scaling laws comparable to cosine schedules for comparison purposes.
- domain assumption DFN-1.4B scaling laws, measured only up to 300M samples and L/14, extrapolate reliably enough for dataset comparison.
Cite this review
Pith. "Pith review of Scaling Laws for Robust Comparison of Open Foundation Language-Vision Models and Datasets." pith.science (2026). https://pith.science/paper/2BLVNSH3
@misc{pith2026250604598,
author = {Pith},
title = {Pith review of: Scaling Laws for Robust Comparison of Open Foundation Language-Vision Models and Datasets},
year = {2026},
howpublished = {\url{https://pith.science/paper/2BLVNSH3}},
note = {Machine review of arXiv:2506.04598}
}
abstract
In studies of transferable learning, scaling laws are obtained for various important foundation models to predict their properties and performance at larger scales. We show here how scaling law derivation can also be used for model and dataset comparison, allowing to decide which procedure is to be preferred for pre-training. For the first time, full scaling laws based on dense measurements across a wide span of model and samples seen scales are derived for two important language-vision learning procedures, CLIP and MaMMUT, that use either contrastive only or contrastive and captioning text generative loss. Ensuring sufficient prediction accuracy for held out points, we use derived scaling laws to compare both models, obtaining evidence for MaMMUT's stronger improvement with scale and better sample efficiency than standard CLIP. To strengthen validity of the comparison, we show scaling laws for various downstream tasks, classification, retrieval, and segmentation, and for different open datasets, DataComp, DFN and Re-LAION, observing consistently the same trends. We show that comparison can also be performed when deriving scaling laws with a constant learning rate schedule, reducing compute cost. Accurate derivation of scaling laws provides thus means to perform model and dataset comparison across scale spans, avoiding misleading conclusions based on measurements from single reference scales only, paving the road for systematic comparison and improvement of open foundation models and datasets for their creation. We release all the pre-trained models with their intermediate checkpoints, including openMaMMUT-L/14, which achieves $80.3\%$ zero-shot ImageNet-1k accuracy, trained on 12.8B samples from DataComp-1.4B. Code for reproducing experiments in the paper and raw experiments data can be found at https://github.com/LAION-AI/scaling-laws-for-comparison.
Figures
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Reviewed August 7, 2026 · model on record in the stance chip above.
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