Recognition: unknown
Does psi(4660) exist?
Pith reviewed 2026-05-07 16:10 UTC · model grok-4.3
The pith
The ψ(4660) resonance corresponds to a bare pole on the real axis in coupled-channel fits to both Belle and BESIII data.
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
The ψ(4660) pole found on the unphysical Riemann sheet above the Λc+ Λc- threshold is associated with a bare pole on the real axis in both the Belle and BESIII fits when two explicit bare 4S and 5S charmonium states are included in the coupled-channel framework.
What carries the argument
Lippmann-Schwinger equation solved with short-ranged contact potentials in the heavy-quark limit that explicitly include two bare S-wave charmonium states (assigned as 4S and 5S).
Load-bearing premise
Short-ranged contact potentials in the heavy-quark limit plus explicit inclusion of two bare 4S and 5S states suffice to describe the coupled-channel dynamics.
What would settle it
New high-precision cross-section data showing a zero value exactly at the Λc+Λc- threshold or a lineshape that cannot be fit with a real-axis bare pole for ψ(4660).
Figures
read the original abstract
We investigate $S$-wave coupled-channel effects in $e^+e^-$ annihilation in the energy region $\sqrt{s}\in[4.0,5.5]\,\mathrm{GeV}$, including the open-charm final states $\Lambda_c^+\bar{\Lambda}_c^-$, $\Xi_c^+\bar{\Xi}_c^-$, $\Xi_c^0\bar{\Xi}_c^0$, and $\psi(2S)\pi^+\pi^-$. Motivated by the recent high-precision BESIII measurements of the $e^+e^-\to\Lambda_c^+\bar{\Lambda}_c^-$ cross section, which shows a nearly flat lineshape around $4.66~\mathrm{GeV}$ and a non-zero value right at threshold, in striking contrast to earlier Belle observation, we construct an effective coupled-channel framework by using short-ranged contact potentials in the heavy-quark limit.Two charmonium states, i.e. the $\psi(4360)$ and $\psi(4660)$, assigned as the $4S$ and $5S$ excitations, respectively, are explicitly included. The scattering amplitudes are obtained by solving the Lippmann-Schwinger equation.The Belle and BESIII $e^+e^-\to\Lambda_c^+\bar{\Lambda}_c^-$ and $e^+e^-\to\psi(2S)\pi^+\pi^-$ cross-sections reveal markedly different pole structures for the $\psi(4360)$. It emerges as a dynamically generated state for the Belle data, whereas it appears as a bare state in the BESIII fit. In contrast, the $\psi(4660)$ pole found on the unphysical Riemann sheet above the $\Lambda_c^+\bar{\Lambda}_c^-$ threshold is associated with a bare pole on the real axis in both fits.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper claims that in a coupled-channel model using short-ranged contact interactions in the heavy-quark limit and explicitly incorporating bare ψ(4360) (4S) and ψ(4660) (5S) states, the solution of the Lippmann-Schwinger equation fitted to Belle and BESIII data shows that the ψ(4660) resonance, appearing as a pole on the unphysical Riemann sheet above the Λ_c^+ Λ_c^- threshold, is associated with the bare 5S state in both datasets. In contrast, the ψ(4360) is dynamically generated for Belle data but bare for BESIII data. This leads to the conclusion that the ψ(4660) exists as the 5S charmonium state.
Significance. This result, if the model assumptions hold, would support the conventional charmonium assignment for ψ(4660) and demonstrate the utility of explicit bare-state inclusion for distinguishing resonance origins. The approach of solving the Lippmann-Schwinger equation with fitted bare parameters provides a clear framework for pole analysis, and the dataset-dependent findings for ψ(4360) underscore the importance of precise experimental inputs. Such analyses contribute to clarifying the spectrum of vector charmonia above the open-charm threshold.
major comments (2)
- The association of the ψ(4660) pole with the bare 5S state is presented as a key finding, but since the bare pole positions are free parameters in the effective model (as implied by the construction of the framework), this association appears to be by construction rather than an emergent prediction. This is load-bearing for the claim that ψ(4660) 'exists' as the 5S state.
- The model relies on the sufficiency of short-ranged contact potentials plus exactly two bare states. Given that the ψ(4360) interpretation changes with the dataset, the robustness of the ψ(4660) conclusion under variations such as inclusion of long-range forces or additional states is not addressed, which is critical for the central claim.
minor comments (2)
- The abstract would benefit from including quantitative details such as the extracted pole positions, residues, or goodness-of-fit measures to allow readers to evaluate the quality of the fits.
- Clarification on how the bare states are assigned as 4S and 5S (e.g., via mass matching or quantum numbers) would improve the presentation.
Simulated Author's Rebuttal
We thank the referee for the careful review and constructive comments on our manuscript. We address the major comments point by point below.
read point-by-point responses
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Referee: The association of the ψ(4660) pole with the bare 5S state is presented as a key finding, but since the bare pole positions are free parameters in the effective model (as implied by the construction of the framework), this association appears to be by construction rather than an emergent prediction. This is load-bearing for the claim that ψ(4660) 'exists' as the 5S state.
Authors: We respectfully disagree that the association is by construction. Although the bare pole positions are fitted parameters, the Lippmann-Schwinger equation is solved in the presence of the coupled-channel contact interactions, which can generate new poles or substantially shift the bare ones. This flexibility is demonstrated by the ψ(4360), whose interpretation changes from dynamically generated (Belle data) to bare (BESIII data). The fact that the ψ(4660) resonance pole remains associated with the bare 5S state in fits to both independent datasets indicates that this outcome is selected by the data rather than imposed a priori. We will add explicit clarification on the procedure used to associate dressed poles with bare states in the revised manuscript. revision: yes
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Referee: The model relies on the sufficiency of short-ranged contact potentials plus exactly two bare states. Given that the ψ(4360) interpretation changes with the dataset, the robustness of the ψ(4660) conclusion under variations such as inclusion of long-range forces or additional states is not addressed, which is critical for the central claim.
Authors: We agree that the robustness of the ψ(4660) result under extensions of the model (e.g., long-range forces or additional bare states) has not been explicitly tested and that the dataset dependence seen for the ψ(4360) makes such checks relevant. Our analysis is restricted to the minimal framework of short-ranged contact interactions in the heavy-quark limit with two explicit bare states. Within this setup the ψ(4660) conclusion is consistent across both datasets. We will add a dedicated paragraph discussing these model limitations and the desirability of future robustness studies in the revised manuscript. revision: partial
Circularity Check
Association of ψ(4660) pole with bare 5S state follows by construction from explicit inclusion and fitting of bare poles
specific steps
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fitted input called prediction
[Abstract]
"Two charmonium states, i.e. the ψ(4360) and ψ(4660), assigned as the 4S and 5S excitations, respectively, are explicitly included. [...] the ψ(4660) pole found on the unphysical Riemann sheet above the Λc+Λc- threshold is associated with a bare pole on the real axis in both fits."
The bare 5S state is introduced as an adjustable input parameter whose position and couplings are fitted to the e+e- cross-section data. The subsequent claim that the dressed ψ(4660) pole 'is associated with' this bare pole is then enforced by the model definition and the fitting procedure itself.
full rationale
The paper's central result—that the ψ(4660) pole is associated with a bare 5S state on the real axis in both Belle and BESIII fits—reduces directly to the model's inputs. The effective framework is defined by adding two bare charmonium states (explicitly assigned as 4S and 5S) plus short-ranged contact potentials, then solving the Lippmann-Schwinger equation and fitting the bare-pole parameters to the cross-section data. The reported association is therefore a direct consequence of this construction rather than an independent dynamical prediction. No other circular steps (self-citation chains, ansatz smuggling, or renaming) are identifiable from the provided text.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
free parameters (2)
- bare masses and couplings of psi(4360) and psi(4660)
- strengths of short-range contact potentials
axioms (1)
- domain assumption Heavy-quark limit justifies short-ranged contact potentials without long-range pion exchange
invented entities (1)
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bare psi(4360) and psi(4660) as 4S and 5S charmonium states
no independent evidence
Reference graph
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discussion (0)
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