REVIEW 2 major objections 7 minor 109 references
A black hole’s place in the mass and accretion planes is a fossil record of how it grew and what its host did.
Reviewed by Pith at T0; open to challenge. T0 means a machine referee read the full paper against a public rubric. the ladder, T0–T4 →
T0 review · grok-4.5
2026-07-10 17:58 UTC pith:XVP362FK
load-bearing objection Clean evolutionary map of massive BHs by tracking the BHs themselves; the four-channel picture is solid and useful, with only the usual sub-grid caveats. the 2 major comments →
Tracing black hole and galaxy growth across environments since cosmic noon
The pith
A machine-rendered reading of the paper's core claim, the machinery that carries it, and where it could break.
Core claim
Central black holes in both ASTRID and TNG300 evolve along a relatively tight, nearly redshift-invariant black-hole mass–stellar mass relation that is broadly consistent with local empirical constraints and with variable AGN at comparable redshifts. Departures from that relation map onto distinct evolutionary channels—merger-built high-mass centrals that quench their hosts, tidally stripped overmassive satellites, and (in ASTRID) undermassive wanderers—so that a black hole’s location in the mass and specific-accretion planes is a fossil record of its history.
What carries the argument
Tracking individual black holes (rather than fixed host galaxies) through the M_BH–M_★ and sBHAR–sSFR planes across 5.3 Gyr, which isolates centrals, stripped satellites, and wanderers and links each population to a concrete growth and feedback channel.
Load-bearing premise
The result rests on the simulations’ sub-grid choices for seeding, black-hole dynamics (or repositioning), accretion, and the switch into kinetic AGN feedback being realistic enough that the tight relation and the distinct off-relation channels are not artifacts of those recipes.
What would settle it
A statistically complete census of black-hole mass, host stellar mass, and accretion state at intermediate redshifts that finds either a strongly evolving central M_BH–M_★ relation or no overmassive stripped and undermassive wandering populations where the simulations predict them.
Editorial analysis
A structured set of objections, weighed in public.
Referee Report
Summary. The paper tracks massive black holes (rather than their original host galaxies) from z=2 to z=0.5 in the ASTRID and TNG300 cosmological simulations, spanning 5.3 Gyr. By following the BHs themselves, the authors capture central BHs, BHs in satellites, and (in ASTRID) off-nuclear wanderers. They report that central BHs in both simulations evolve along a relatively tight, nearly redshift-invariant M_BH–M_⋆ relation that is broadly consistent with the local KH13 relation and with variable-AGN samples at comparable redshifts (Burke+24; Liu+25). Departures from this relation map distinct channels: merger-built high-mass centrals that quench via AGN kinetic feedback; tidally stripped satellites that become overmassive at fixed M_BH; and ASTRID wanderers that are undermassive relative to their new hosts and accrete little. These populations occupy characteristic regions of both the M_BH–M_⋆ and sBHAR–sSFR planes, which the authors interpret as a fossil record of dynamical, accretion, and feedback history.
Significance. If the evolutionary-map interpretation holds, the work provides a useful organizing framework for reading BH–galaxy scaling relations at intermediate redshift: location in the M_BH–M_⋆ and sBHAR–sSFR planes encodes not only integrated growth but also environment and dynamical history. The dual-simulation design is a genuine strength—ASTRID and TNG differ in seeding, BH dynamics (subgrid dynamical friction vs. repositioning), and kinetic-feedback thresholds, yet both produce a tight central relation and a high-mass quenching channel, while wanderers and stripped satellites appear only where the dynamics allow them. External anchors (KH13; Burke+24; Liu+25) and the explicit side-by-side comparison of known model choices strengthen the claim relative to single-simulation studies. The approach of following BHs rather than host galaxies is a clear methodological contribution for late-time assembly studies.
major comments (2)
- [Section 3 / Figure 3] Sec. 3 and Fig. 3: The authors correctly note that TNG merger catalogs are incomplete and that merger-driven mass growth for TNG BHs may be underestimated. However, the quantitative claims that high-mass TNG BHs grow almost entirely via mergers (mean fractions 89% at 1<z<2 and 82% at 0.5<z<1 for M_BH>10^9 M_⊙) are load-bearing for the “high-mass centrals” channel in TNG. The paper should either quantify the incompleteness (e.g., fraction of untraceable BHs as a function of mass, or a lower-limit vs. upper-limit estimate) or demonstrate that the qualitative conclusion—merger dominance at the high-mass end relative to accretion—survives plausible missing-merger corrections. Without that, the TNG side of Fig. 3 remains hard to interpret at face value.
- [Section 5 / Figure 7] Sec. 4.1 and Sec. 5 / Fig. 7: The comparison to the KH13 local relation is central to the claim of consistency with empirical constraints, yet KH13 uses bulge stellar mass while the simulations use stellar mass within twice the stellar half-mass radius. The manuscript notes this once but does not assess the systematic offset. Because bulge-to-total ratios vary with mass and morphology, this choice can shift the simulated relation relative to KH13 by amounts comparable to the reported residual offsets (especially at the low-mass end where ASTRID already differs). A brief estimate of the expected bias, or a restricted comparison at high mass where bulges dominate, would make the “broadly consistent” claim more secure.
minor comments (7)
- [Section 3] Sec. 3: The TNG sample drops from 10 000 to 4146 BHs by z=0.5, largely due to merger-catalog incompleteness and the isolation/zero-stellar-mass cuts. A short table or sentence giving the breakdown of attrition reasons (untraceable, merged duplicates dropped, isolated, M_⋆=0) would help readers judge residual selection bias.
- [Section 4.1] Sec. 4.1: The operational definition of “centrals” vs. “wanderers” shifts between the 3σ contour of the typical z=0.5 relation (used in Sec. 4) and the stricter R_BH < 3 h^{-1} ckpc cut (used in Sec. 5). Stating both cuts once in a single paragraph and noting how many objects change classification would reduce ambiguity.
- [Figure 1] Fig. 1 and related maps: The color scale is normalized jointly across both simulations and all redshifts. That choice aids comparison but can compress dynamic range within a single panel. Consider noting in the caption when a panel’s median values sit near the floor or ceiling of the shared scale.
- [Figure 4] Fig. 4 vs. Terrazas+17: The comparison mixes z=0.5 primaries+satellites with z∼0 central galaxies. The text already flags this; a one-sentence reminder in the figure caption would help casual readers.
- [Section 2] Sec. 2.1–2.2: The kinetic-feedback parameter differences (M_crit, χ_cap, redshift cut, coupling efficiencies) are listed but not tabulated. A compact parameter table would make the cross-code comparison easier to follow.
- [Abstract / Section 6] Abstract and Sec. 6: The phrase “fossil record” is effective but slightly strong given that the mapping is demonstrated only within these two subgrid models. Softening to “encodes” or “retains memory of” (as already used elsewhere) would better match the evidence presented.
- [Appendix A] Appendix A / Fig. 9: Halo mass distributions are useful context; a brief note on why ASTRID hosts sit in more massive halos at fixed galaxy M_⋆ (more galaxies per halo) is already in the text—consider moving one sentence of that explanation into the figure caption.
Circularity Check
No significant circularity: M_BH–M_⋆ tracks and fossil-record interpretation are measured simulation outputs, externally benchmarked.
full rationale
The paper’s central claims are empirical measurements from ASTRID and TNG300: central BHs track a tight, nearly redshift-invariant M_BH–M_⋆ relation (Figs. 1, 7), high-mass centrals grow by mergers then quench via kinetic feedback (Figs. 3–4), tidal stripping produces overmassive satellites, and ASTRID wanderers are undermassive with low accretion (Figs. 1–2, 5–6). These are direct outputs of the sub-grid models, not quantities fitted to the target relation or defined in terms of it. External anchors (KH13 local relation; Burke+24 and Liu+25 variable AGN) supply independent benchmarks. Self-citations (simulation method papers, Dattathri+25 for sBHAR–sSFR quadrants) define the codes or supply interpretive scaffolding; they do not force the measured tracks or the fossil-record claim by construction. Incomplete TNG merger trees are acknowledged and do not close a circular loop. No self-definitional step, fitted-input-as-prediction, uniqueness import, or renaming of a known result is present.
Axiom & Free-Parameter Ledger
free parameters (3)
- ASTRID BH seed mass power-law index and range
- TNG BH seed mass
- Kinetic-feedback thresholds (M_crit, χ_cap, redshift cut)
axioms (3)
- domain assumption Bondi-like accretion plus the thermal/kinetic feedback switch correctly captures the net growth and quenching of massive BHs after z=2.
- domain assumption SUBFIND subhalos and the twice-half-mass-radius aperture give a meaningful stellar mass for both centrals and satellites.
- ad hoc to paper Gaussian KDE contours of the z=0.5 ‘typical’ relation correctly separate centrals from wanderers.
read the original abstract
The distribution of systems in the black hole mass-stellar mass ($M_\mathrm{BH}-M_\star$) plane encodes not only the integrated growth of galaxies and their central black holes (BHs), but also the processes that shape their evolution. Using the ASTRID and TNG300 cosmological simulations, we track massive BHs from cosmic noon ($z=2$) to $z=0.5$, spanning 5.3 Gyr of assembly. Unlike most previous studies, we follow the BHs themselves rather than their original host galaxies, thereby capturing central BHs, BHs in satellites, and off-nuclear wandering BHs. We find that central BHs in both simulations evolve along a relatively tight, nearly redshift-invariant $M_\mathrm{BH}-M_\star$ relation that is broadly consistent with local empirical constraints and with measurements from variable active galactic nuclei (AGN) at comparable redshifts. Departures from this relation trace distinct evolutionary channels. High-mass central BHs grow substantially through mergers and subsequently quench their hosts through AGN kinetic feedback. Tidal stripping moves satellites to lower $M_\star$ at nearly fixed $M_\mathrm{BH}$, producing weakly accreting, overmassive central BHs in gas-poor systems. In ASTRID, satellite accretion and inefficient dynamical friction generate wandering BHs that are undermassive relative to their new hosts and experience minimal accretion or merger-driven growth. These populations occupy characteristic regions in both the $M_\mathrm{BH}-M_\star$ and the specific BH accretion rate-specific star formation rate planes, demonstrating that a BH's location in these planes is a fossil record of its dynamical, accretion, and feedback history.
Figures
Reference graph
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EIGER. V. Characterizing the Host Galaxies of Luminous Quasars at z 6. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/1538-4357/ad3914 , archivePrefix =. 2309.04614 , primaryClass =
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The Rise of Faint, Red Active Galactic Nuclei at z > 4: A Sample of Little Red Dots in the JWST Extragalactic Legacy Fields. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/1538-4357/adbc7d , archivePrefix =. 2404.03576 , primaryClass =
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JWST CEERS and JADES Active Galaxies at z = 4-7 Violate the Local M _ -M _ Relation at >3 : Implications for Low-mass Black Holes and Seeding Models. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/2041-8213/ad0158 , archivePrefix =. 2308.12331 , primaryClass =
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Blossoms from black hole seeds: properties and early growth regulated by supernova feedback
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The relationship between black hole mass and galaxy properties: examining the black hole feedback model in IllustrisTNG. , keywords =. doi:10.1093/mnras/staa374 , archivePrefix =. 1906.02747 , primaryClass =
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Correlations Between Black Holes and Host Galaxies in the Illustris and IllustrisTNG Simulations
Correlations between Black Holes and Host Galaxies in the Illustris and IllustrisTNG Simulations. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/1538-4357/ab8f8d , archivePrefix =. 1910.00017 , primaryClass =
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Physical Models of Galaxy Formation in a Cosmological Framework
Physical Models of Galaxy Formation in a Cosmological Framework. , keywords =. doi:10.1146/annurev-astro-082812-140951 , archivePrefix =. 1412.2712 , primaryClass =
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A Unified, Merger-driven Model of the Origin of Starbursts, Quasars, the Cosmic X-Ray Background, Supermassive Black Holes, and Galaxy Spheroids. , keywords =. doi:10.1086/499298 , archivePrefix =. astro-ph/0506398 , primaryClass =
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Quasars and galaxy formation. , keywords =. doi:10.48550/arXiv.astro-ph/9801013 , archivePrefix =. astro-ph/9801013 , primaryClass =
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Journey to the M _ BH - relation: the fate of low-mass black holes in the Universe. , keywords =. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2966.2009.15577.x , archivePrefix =. 0903.2262 , primaryClass =
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Tracing the rise of supermassive black holes. A panchromatic search for faint, unobscured quasars at z 6 with COSMOS-Web and other surveys. , keywords =. doi:10.1051/0004-6361/202349025 , archivePrefix =. 2401.11826 , primaryClass =
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The Redshift Evolution of the M _ M _ Relation for JWST's Supermassive Black Holes at z > 4. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/1538-4357/ad3044 , archivePrefix =. 2401.04159 , primaryClass =
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UNCOVER: The Growth of the First Massive Black Holes from JWST/NIRSpec-Spectroscopic Redshift Confirmation of an X-Ray Luminous AGN at z = 10.1. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/2041-8213/acf7c5 , archivePrefix =. 2308.02750 , primaryClass =
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First Detection of an Overmassive Black Hole Galaxy UHZ1: Evidence for Heavy Black Hole Seed Formation from Direct Collapse. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/2041-8213/ad0e76 , archivePrefix =. 2308.02654 , primaryClass =
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Co-evolution of massive black holes and their host galaxies at high redshift: discrepancies from six cosmological simulations and the key role of JWST. , keywords =. doi:10.1093/mnras/stac225 , archivePrefix =. 2201.09892 , primaryClass =
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The evolution of massive black hole seeds. , keywords =. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2966.2007.12589.x , archivePrefix =. 0709.0529 , primaryClass =
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Formation of Supermassive Black Holes
Formation of supermassive black holes. , keywords =. doi:10.1007/s00159-010-0029-x , archivePrefix =. 1003.4404 , primaryClass =
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Evidence for heavy seed origin of early supermassive black holes from a z~10 X-ray quasar
Evidence for heavy-seed origin of early supermassive black holes from a z 10 X-ray quasar. Nature Astronomy , keywords =. doi:10.1038/s41550-023-02111-9 , archivePrefix =. 2305.15458 , primaryClass =
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Supermassive black holes in cosmological simulations I: M _ BH - M _ relation and black hole mass function. , keywords =. doi:10.1093/mnras/stab496 , archivePrefix =. 2006.10094 , primaryClass =
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Cosmic Star-Formation History. , keywords =. doi:10.1146/annurev-astro-081811-125615 , archivePrefix =. 1403.0007 , primaryClass =
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Accretion-driven evolution of black holes: Eddington ratios, duty cycles and active galaxy fractions. , keywords =. doi:10.1093/mnras/sts026 , archivePrefix =. 1111.3574 , primaryClass =
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Central Massive Black Holes Are Not Ubiquitous in Local Low-mass Galaxies. , keywords =. doi:10.3847/1538-4357/ae06a1 , archivePrefix =. 2510.05252 , primaryClass =
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Proceedings of the 9th Python in Science Conference , pages =
Data Structures for Statistical Computing in Python. Proceedings of the 9th Python in Science Conference , pages =. 2010 , editor =
work page 2010
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